EP13: Shedding Skins: Grief, Transformation and the Birth of the Noble W**ker

Why are loss and grief so often mistaken for failure when they’re really just natural parts of life and growth?

In this episode of Juicy! The Podcast, Lola and Olivia get real about the messy, beautiful process of transformation. Olivia opens up about feeling stuck in a period of transition, while Lola reflects on her own path of change, inspired by astrological insights like Pluto’s move from Capricorn to Aquarius.

Together, they explore what it means to shed past identities, embrace profound change, and lean into grief—not just to survive, but to thrive by aligning with long-term desires even when society pulls us in other directions.

This episode also introduces the archetype of the 'Noble W**ker’ — a playful yet profound concept born in this conversation, and one we’ll revisit in future episodes.

In their candid and soulful chat, they unpack:

• The tension between short-term thrills and enduring partnerships, and what those choices reveal about our true desires.
• How cultural norms make us fear loss, mistaking it for failure instead of seeing it as a stepping stone to vitality and self-awareness.
• The binary thinking that stifles personal growth.
• Why life’s natural cycles of loss and grief are essential for transformation.
• How humour and authenticity can disarm our harshest inner critics.
• The surprising power of vulnerability and trust in a larger guiding force.

Lola and Olivia reflect on society’s hustle culture and its impact on how we define success, emphasising the importance of patience, grace, and reconnecting with our own cycles. They also share how the podcast itself is a testament to creative freedom—produced on their own terms, with authenticity at its core.

If you’re navigating change, feeling stuck, or just need a reminder that it’s okay to embrace the messy, tune in. This episode is for you.

Chapters

• 0:00 The Juicy Podcast
• 13:20 Navigating Grief and Transformation
• 21:00 Embracing Loss and Surrender for Wholeness
• 39:11 Return to Wholeness and Transformation
• 50:45 Journey Towards Wholeness and Healing
• 1:00:54 Facing Internal Criticism and Growth
• 1:04:41 Navigating Dysfunction and Personal Responsibility
• 1:18:32 Sustainable Podcasting on Our Terms

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:18

Hola mi gente, and welcome back to another episode of the Juicy Podcast. It's your girl, lola.

Speaker 2: 1:27

Hello, it's your girl Liv.

Speaker 1: 1:30

And thanks for being patient with us. Expect more inconsistency from us, because we can be. We are consistent in our inconsistency. So just to build your expectations, manage your expectations. Today we are going to be having a really juicy conversation about loss, losing parts of ourselves, a bit of grief. Grief always shows up a lot for us, actually in our world, in our work, and a topic that really doesn't get spoken about enough, considering what a significant part of the human experience it is. So we brave like that, we can go there. Before we go there, though, I just want to check in with my co-hosts and, uh see, how are you doing today, liv?

Speaker 2: 2:21

oh, thank you for asking, babe. Uh, I am emerging from a dark few weeks. I'm feeling um, open today and softer. I've really been in the, I've been in the, I've been in the trench, I've been in like a like actually really wrestling with this topic of loss as I come to terms with how much my life has changed recently. Yeah, but I've been facing some things in my life that have been hard to look at and I found myself kind of wrestling with the natural flow of where my life is going.

Speaker 2: 3:06

And if you are a listener, you know that I'm in a big transition. I'm in kind of a year of transition and I feel like in general I've been pretty surrendered. But today I have noticed that the last week or so I've not felt that way at all. I've been like this is horrendous. I hate feeling so um. I've hated feeling so small and so kind of unproductive and, you know, kind of stuck. So I'm not feeling like that today. I am sort of emerging, but that has been the theme for me recently. Yeah, yeah, what about you darling? Thanks both.

Speaker 1: 3:56

I'm sure you're not alone in how you're feeling and I'm sure that what you're describing is resonating with many people, because I've been really feeling there's been a lot of it about you know. So, for me, how am I feeling today? Right in this moment I'm having, I have an extremely rich internal world, and that continues. I don't know how to answer that question. Oh, my god, how am I doing today? I mean, I'm doing well, I'm feeling relaxed, um looking forward to this. I'm constantly in a state of transformation. I suppose probably the best way to frame this is astrologically for me. So I'm not an expert. Um, I can hold my own, let's say, and I actually find astrology to be extremely useful. Um been into it for a few years, but I particularly got quite into it over the pandemic, and the reason was because when everything kind of started to fall apart, like quite quickly, you know, like the early days of the pandemic, when um structures it's like our life structures were kind of like falling apart, I was absolutely fascinated by the fact that I mean, I always had this thing in my mind of like nothing's real. Why is nothing real if things pretend and fake? And it was like a real, it was like seeing that on a whole nother level at that time and it was like, oh my god, it was almost like the the unrealness of so many things in our lives, because I kind of really felt like things that are real will stay, and it was incredible all the things that started to fall apart, right, and all the things that we thought was so important, even like right down to things like we really relied on. People like that worked in the supermarkets, postmen, hospital workers. You know it was really clear and as a coach, I proper felt surplus to requirements. You know it's like, yeah, bitch, coach, I proper felt surplus to requirements. You know it's like, yeah, bitch, no one cares about coaching right now. It's like, you know, it's a real kind of leveler, um, and that that kind of that applied to many, many things, including, like, because there was a lot of misinformation. There was a lot of shouting and screaming and panic and fear and noise, and so what I noticed when I was paying attention to everything that was going on was one of the places that felt really clear in that moment that held that sort of told the truth was astrology. It wouldn't go into the ins and outs, it wasn't like it would say, oh, the pandemic is going to end at this point. But the themes I've really got to see at that moment, like how spot on the themes were right, and so it really deepened my relationship with astrology and I dip in and out just to check in sometimes.

Speaker 1: 7:18

What's going on up there and how's it affecting us? And what's coming to my awareness, particularly this year, is that Pluto has been in Capricorn for the last 15 years and Pluto is like the planet of death and rebirth, um, so it's very transformational planet. And then capricorn is like the sign of structures, it's like the father of the zodiac, and so it's affecting all of us, right. So it's basically leaving and moving into aquarius. Today's november the 12th, as we record this November the 19th, it kind of starts to move into Aquarius and that marks the end of a 15-year cycle of, you know, lots of transformation in our structures, in our personal structures, our life structures, um, our global structures. So it started in 2008, um november, I think back end of 2008 and you know we've had some things in that time we UK and we've had Trump in 2016. We've had 2020 pandemic, we've got Trump again and there's other things, right, and these are like. So it's been lots of things that have really affected lots of us. And then my sun sign is a Capricorn I'm a Capricorn, lots of us and then my sun sign is a Capricorn I'm a Capricorn. So where this has kind of really clicked to me recently because it's literally leaving the sign of Capricorn for the last time now in our lifetimes and as a Capricorn sun, and I suppose if you have a Capricorn moon or Capricorn rising, you would have been even more affected for the last 15 years.

Speaker 1: 9:26

So we have been going through deep transformation for 15 years now and I felt that I have honestly felt that and what, as I'm kind of in a place where I'm reflecting on the last 15 years, that's all I need to do right now is look back, see what I've learned. I'm not nowhere near the same person that I was in 2008 now, and probably one of the key things was that I became a mother. Well, I didn't become a mother, I became pregnant. It was. So November 2008 was the early days of my pregnancy, first trimester. I've got one child, um and that was a massive transition and transformation and I felt that it was as I was going through the pregnancy, which is why I named my child Phoenix, and so for me at the moment there's all these kind of dots connecting things landing. It's been fucking mega. I cannot even fucking tell you.

Speaker 1: 10:28

I mean, I'm writing a book, I'm trying to write a book. It's really hard actually, but yeah, so things are dropping into. I don't require my brain to understand what's going on. I trust I've got a real deep sense of trust, good discernment, so that means I don't often know what is happening and why it's happening, but that doesn't stop me. And then later on I tend to know why at some point, and I feel like I'm getting into this kind of oh, starting to know why. So I'm in a place of actually really, really deep celebration. It's not like super hype, it's. It's more like all. I'm in a place of all. I feel deeply, deeply moved, tender, soft, fiery, tender, soft, fiery, grateful, amongst many other things. This is why I don't like small talk, because I can't just answer a question. I don't know how people do it, how normal people do it. I can't do that.

Speaker 1: 11:43

This is what I can't just answer a question. I don't know how people do it, how they normal people do it. I can't do that.

Speaker 2: 11:47

This is what I can do well, thank you for not, uh, cutting that short because, yeah, there's a lot in there, there's a lot in there. As I was listening to you, I was like 15 years is a long time. It's a really long time and, yeah, I certainly relate to mega capital t, mega transformation in that time and I wonder if the book will be easier to write outside of this 15 year cycle.

Speaker 1: 12:37

Yeah, I mean, I gave up on a personal agenda for the book a while back because it was clear there was times in this cycle where I felt like, oh, I've landed somewhere. Oh, and I remember one just before pandemic actually I really felt I'd landed in a super significant place and it was like nope, off we go again. Yeah, so today, what we want to talk about is well, we often talk about growth and transformation, but what often isn't spoken about is the grief that is completely part and parcel of it, not part and parcel. It's more, not part and parcel, it's more than that, absolutely fucking essential. It's absolutely essential for us to leave parts of ourselves behind or have a different relationship with them, or something, in order to actually transform. So we want to look at what it means to let go of people, or the yeah, the people that we've been, and also why sort of honoring those past versions of yourself as well is really important and key to moving forward. It's funny because I'm actually I've been writing something about this for a while and this morning I thought, hmm, I think I might want to write a little bit more.

Speaker 1: 14:12

I always have like many pieces on the go. I write in a very eclectic fashion and then I kind of dip in and out as and when I feel called to. And I'm feeling called to go back into this piece. And this piece is actually about grief and transformation and it was inspired because I co-facilitate with many people. I love co-facilitating and even though I'm a coach, I'm in the business of transformation. Not my clients, my clients transform and grow, you know. But being that I'm in the business of transformation, I think people would assume that I saw more transformation than I actually do.

Speaker 1: 14:58

And when this really hit me was I think it was earlier this year or maybe last year I was working with one particular colleague and I hadn't worked with her for about two years, so sometimes we were always sort of delivering the same. The program we're delivering is generally the same. It's like a framework. The difference comes with the people in the room. So we run women's leadership programs in tech. They're very transformational, I love them and there's a pool of us that do it and we rotate.

Speaker 1: 15:32

So I was working with this woman. I hadn't worked with her for a while and just when I was working with her, like as we were with the group, I was really noticing like wow, she's really changed Like geez, wow. And I love, I do love to see, I love to see like this kind of flower blooming feeling. I could see that in her and I'm like whoa, she's proper changed Like not.

Speaker 1: 16:01

You know, there's a difference between the caterpillar turning into the butterfly and going through a process and the caterpillar sticking some wings on it right, I think there's a lot of sticking wings on it, but actually going through the actual metamorphosis that's required for transformation and change. I know that I could smell, that, I could see that, I could see it clear as day, and it was such a joy to be around as well. But what it also made me realize, my reaction was so like intense that I was like I was like surprised and I was like why am I surprised? And that was when I realized I don't see this as much as I think, probably think you would think I would. And then I started thinking like what is it? What is the thing that makes the difference? Because I see a lot of activity and a lot of noise. So I was like what is the thing that makes the difference? And the answer is grief.

Speaker 1: 17:18

People transform or the people who transform are the people who go through the process of, like shedding skin, of losing an identification with an older version of themselves. Facts, facts, facts, facts, facts, facts. You have to, and so that's that's what I'm kind of. That's where I'm starting from. I think in today's sesh Liv actually was, it was your idea to bring it today. Um, yeah, what's your. Where are you starting from?

Speaker 2: 17:49

ah, it's interesting sitting here because I feel super raw listening to you and it feels I really feel like I'm going through that right now and so it doesn't feel as easy for me to talk about. So I'm curious where, where this conversation is going to take us. For me inside of myself, I feel like this kind of real tender thread of oh, that is absolutely what I'm experiencing right now like a deep, deep, deep grief, because there's a particular theme that's really present in my life and that is kind of one of the big changes I'm going through. One of the things that's shifted in my life is orienting my life to have a long-term partner family so that really admitting to myself like how this process has gone so far is like really admitting to myself. That's something I deeply want, and I want that more than I want other things. So maybe the version of myself a few years ago would have been like I really want to build my business and I really want to achieve my entrepreneurial dreams. I really want to build my business and I really want to achieve my entrepreneurial dreams. I really want to create something. I want to devote my whole life to creation and work, or I really want a long-term partner, I'd love to get married.

Speaker 2: 19:40

Now it's shifted to be like oh, I really would love to be a mom, oh, wow, that's like a really different desire and it's the desire that I think has led me home back to the UK, where I'm from, over the last year and given up my you know more bachelorette lifestyle in Paris where I kind of had, you know, more of a single lady lifestyle. My desire to be near my family feels part of this transition. My desire to take a sabbatical from work feels part of this transition, and so I've been kind of thrust into so much loss and so much grief as I've kind of said yes to following without any real guarantees of if it's going to happen, but I'm going to definitely pour my love and attention and devotion onto this thing. I leave a trail of things I've had to let go of and versions of myself I've had to let go of, and this week I was having a conversation with a girlfriend where we were talking about how do you, how do you, reconcile having two conflicting desires? And it's something that, in my work, a lot of my focus has been on desire, and it's probably one of the most common questions I get.

Speaker 2: 21:00

Well, I have conflicting desires, so a common one is I really want long-term partnership. I'm desperate for long-term partnership. I want to have stability and a family and things like that. But I also love having a great time and I love attention and I love just going out and meeting really attractive new partners and I love to flirt and have a good time and like how do I know, how do I have both? I don't want to give one up for the other one and often in that dynamic our behavior will show us what we want more right now. So if you're continually choosing short-term fun rotations, chances are that's what you want more, and if you are saying no to that, you're actually cultivating more environments and experiences that are more in alignment with the other desire. Then the chances are you probably want that more.

Speaker 2: 22:05

And that's where I am right. I'm in this place where short-term, casual flings not interesting to me whatsoever. I might be like that looks nice, but I'm definitely not going to go over and eat the meal. I'm going to say, oh, that looks nice, but I'm definitely not going to go over and eat the meal. I'm going to say, oh, that looks nice, but I'm actually looking for something um more long term and my behavior and my words and my actions are all kind of in alignment with that desire and I think why this is so.

Speaker 2: 22:38

Um, I see like us go back and forth on this a lot and I think the thing that is hard to admit to ourselves is we don't want to give things up in order to have the thing we don't currently have.

Speaker 2: 22:54

We do not want to change, we do not want to transform, we do not want to take the risk that maybe it will never happen. So I might as well just keep feeding this short-term desire for fun and a good time. Because what if I take the risk and start saying no to this and and I let go of this version of myself and then I never fucking I fail, or it never happens for me, or I look stupid or it's painful, or I'm rejected or it. It requires um us to be real with ourselves, that the thing we are often avoiding is loss, and loss is uncomfortable. Grief um is real and grieving and letting go of our former selves is scary sometimes and we have to trust that the process that is unfolding is in service of something different and we have to trust it. And it's hard to trust something you've not necessarily experienced.

Speaker 1: 24:04

Yeah, yeah, mum. So much there, babe. I felt like you hit the nail on the head with the. We don't want to give things up. You know, we've just got a terrible relationship with loss it's really seen as like a bad, bad thing.

Speaker 1: 24:28

But and I'd include there's so many different forms of that as well, like loss, losing, dying, the yeah, all of that. We've got a terrible relationship with it, um, as, as humans I don't know if I'm going to really say that, because I don't think it's all our fault. You know a lot we've taken, a lot's been a lot of our real nature has been taken out of us, um, in service of bullshit, but um, do you know what I mean? And then I think it's these moments where we feel it, yeah, and that that's the conflict. I think, like the conflict of, like our real humanity that knows loss is part of life in the, because it's just part of nature, because in the autumn, the trees lose their leaves and you know we there's so many natural versions of none of us are fucking immortal, none of us are getting out of this thing alive, right? Yeah, 100 years time, a whole new batch of people, right?

Speaker 1: 25:35

So loss, death, is natural. It's a natural part of life. And also sadness I'd put that there as well sorrow, you know there's emotions that also come with it, and we just do a lot to avoid. So let's just name that. You know I'll have a name in a little bit of context and I'm sure there's some soil reference you're going to give me, because I don't actually know that much about nature, right. But this is for me just like what I would call the real common sense, and so I don't know. I'm sure there's something bad that happens when we don't let things die in nature, right, when something's meant to die, when it's just part of a natural cycle yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:23

Well, I would say that I think, ultimately, it ends up losing its vitality and nutrition. Like you can't sustain being alive and being like being a kind of energized and happy. You can't sustain it. It's not, it's not real to be there all the time, and the thing that comes to my mind with this is we've mistaken being going through loss as being a loser.

Speaker 2: 26:50

Like we, we live in binaries, like we have this bullshit culture of binary thinking, which is black versus white, right like yes versus no, failure versus winner, and so people think that, okay, I'm going through loss, grief, death, I'm in a period of down, I'm I'm, I'm in the dark, I'm in the soil. I am therefore lacking in any value. So I must be a loser, and this means I'm identifying now that I'm a loser because I ended up here versus the education required around the cyclical nature of life and you know anyone that's been around the block a few times and really lived, and I think really of the time but this conditioning that we receive will tell us it's not okay to be in one place or the other and so, you know, some of us have conditioning in other places.

Speaker 2: 28:03

Some people have it in the other direction where they're not comfortable with things going really well and they make being a winner. Winner rabbit is mean something about them, um, and so I think that they're. You know, we love the nature reference. Um, not allowing things to die and decay and trying to keep them the same all of the time is artificial, it's not true nature of something. So if you kept something alive artificially, it's going to ultimately lack in some kind of nutritious um, something nutritious that comes from allowing the process to unfold as nature intended. And we're no different as humans we need, we need our fallow years, our decay, we need um, we need to rest and replant and um re-evaluate.

Speaker 1: 29:09

So then it's like, um, as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking so what gets in the way? Right, because something was interrupted, this natural process for us and, yes, I get it the conditioning, but sort of more specific than that and the first word that comes up to me is control, a form of control. Right, we also live in a world that has equated being out of control with failing or doing something wrong, which then loses, which makes you then lose the ability to surrender. So, just to be clear, right, because everyone's going to be hearing this through their own lenses and we've all got our own shit. So, for clarity, I'm about wholeness. I'm about wholeness. I'm about knowing that there's a time to take control and there's a time to surrender. I'm not, I'm not on your, I'm not on this binary bullshit, right, I'm really committed to unhooking from as much as this shit and I have been for a long time and it's in, it's working. So I'm not. And but I'm also really aware the toll that that actually takes, because that's great for me, but most people are hooked into this stuff. I get it, we're all hooked in, unless we choose not to be right, and that's another. That's a process, that's an ongoing process. So I also tend to find that a lot of people will hear me in their binary often and I find it really fucking irritating, but I don't have any control about that. So, while everyone else is playing an either or game, right, because I know that if I start talking about surrender, some people are like, oh, this sounds so terribly passive and powerless. It's like, no, that's a completely different thing. When you step out of the binary as well, there's so much more nuance available which is required for wholeness, which is power, which is pure real power. So, yeah, the control.

Speaker 1: 31:31

I think like being bought into that belief, mindset, conditioning of being in control is good, being out of control is bad. It's not true Just going to call bullshit on that right here, right now. That's not true. That's not absolutely true. In every single situation, blanket, it's 11, 11 as I say that, which means it's a big truth.

Speaker 1: 32:02

But you know, it's not, um, because I'm like, yeah, what gets in the way? Because I think I believe in some kind of innateness of us as humans, as beings, as nature, as expressions and part of nature. So my, I'm always looking at what gets in the way, what's interrupting that innateness, and not because I know that a lot of times we're working with and I don't think this is conscious as well right, so a lot what I'm saying you have to actually don't listen, don't be like, oh, I don't think like that. Just because you think, doesn't mean you don't. Just because you think that this isn't conscious, this isn't the. Again, let's be real, was it? And the numbers don't need to be exact. Right, there's something like 10 of our brain is conscious, 90 is not.

Speaker 1: 33:00

So when we're like, oh, I don't think like that, oh, I don't, we're not talking about that, we're talking about the bits you don't fucking see, the 90 fucking percent that you ain't got fucking clue about. But there are ways of seeing that it's not just, it doesn't happen in your mind. If that makes in your head. There are ways, you, there's evidence all around you in your life and stuff like that. So, yeah, there's just, there's just a lot to unhook from live. There really is just a lot to unhook from live. There really is just a lot to unhook from. But every single one of the situations that we have in our lives are opportunities to do that. Yeah, I really believe that they're opportunities and they're trying to help us.

Speaker 2: 33:43

I really believe all road to lead in this direction the thing that it the thing that kind of is coming up for me. Listening to this is what gets in the way for me. It's, it's rushing, like the unbearable nature of being where I am sometimes and my like perceived inability to feel and be where I am, like feeling the, the nature of grief or the nature of loss sometimes just feels really painful and sometimes I feel like I might actually die if I was to feel the depth of what I'm really feeling. That's kind of how it feels sometimes and I think that, um, uh, so so I'll share a personal example.

Speaker 2: 34:36

The last week, my internal world took a dark turn, sounds like the beginning of like a horrible story. I was, I was, I was overwhelmed. There's a lot going on and in this kind of state of overwhelm like I kind of feel, oh fuck, there's like this sort of turning towards myself happening. I've been avoiding something internally. I feel like I need to feel something, but it felt so overwhelming and I had so much other stuff going on, it was really hard to just stop and turn and be with myself, and so I feel like sometimes the thing that gets in the way is I'm so my default, my autopilot, is to try and bypass or avoid whatever it is that's happening inside of this part of the process. And when I do that and I try and rush through it and get to, I feel like I'll have this somewhere I'm supposed to get to.

Speaker 2: 35:49

It's kind of my autopilot thinking I need to get somewhere. Where I am isn't okay, shit, need to fix it. Don't like how this feels, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. What actually happens for me there is I completely shut down any receptors to any kind of guidance. So when you talk about surrender, what that means to me is I'm actually, uh, willing and able to get out of my own way when things are really fucking hard and I'm able to stop trying to control the timeline, the pace, the destination, actually let go of all of those things and be like I don't fucking know where I'm supposed to get to, like I just know right now that I need to feel this and trust that actually, if I let go of me knowing all the answers, I'm actually saying like, hey, universe, collaborate with me, please guide me here, help me.

Speaker 1: 36:46

I'm open to some kind of support, not like white knuckling my way through a tough moment, which I have a tendency to do yes, nice, and it's funny because you call it speed, and so there's lots of different things that get in the way, right, and it's important and not important, but it's. I think it's important to us that we recognize what that is for us, or how we see it for us, right, so we can keep an eye on it, because mine is control, 100 control, and so even when you're speaking about the speed piece, which I have that issue too, I've got so many issues, but, um, it's about the. For me, the speed is still trying to maintain some kind of control, right. So? And then I suppose we could take it another step back and be like what's behind the control? And there's probably some sort of fear there, right? So one thing I do know for sure, and I know this with a capital k I've been around the block a few times. I love that phrase and um, transformation isn't, it's not, it's not a game of forcing, pushing, white knuckling, it's not For me, like holding so many people through transformation, doing my ongoing transformation work, transforming people beyond myself, communities, um, family, my family, which is the one I'm the most proud of and that will continue putting things out into the world to help other people transform on a large scale.

Speaker 1: 38:57

What is it I'm trying to say? There is no, there is no chance. There really is no transformation without that fucking pain. It's horrible, but it's not like it's. And it doesn't get any easier neither. I think.

Speaker 1: 39:11

At once upon a time I thought, oh, hopefully having this knowledge will help. No, because I think when you're really in the depths of that kind of peak I think it's like a peak moment of transformation you almost shouldn't know what's going on, like that's part of it. You almost shouldn't know what's going on, like that's part of it. You kind of get separated from now. So what I used to, I'm trying to think of some tangible. I've got too many, so I'm just gonna have to quiet my brain down just to get. Just give me one, please, not all of them at the same time. But oh fuck, there's something I'm trying to say here about this transformation. It feels important.

Speaker 1: 40:07

Okay, we live in a world where this isn't celebrated. We live in a world where this isn't celebrated. We live in a world where this isn't valued. Like, I'm not. I don't get a pay rise for this, for instance. Is what I mean? Right?

Speaker 1: 40:30

This is about living on your own terms, not on the terms that have been given to you. If you want to live on the terms that are given to you, that's fine, like completely fine, do your thing. But if that doesn't work for you for one reason or another and let's face it, there's many, many people that it doesn't work for then I want to normalize that pain. The pain part, like life is painful anyway. You're going to get pain, right. You're going to get the pain of when I was ticking all the boxes that was given to me, the terms that were given to me. I was in a lot of pain. I was in so much pain I've recently had an another level of awareness around how much pain I was in at that time. Um, in fact, I'll tell this story because this might be useful.

Speaker 1: 41:28

So recently my partner turned 50 and there was like a whole birthday weekend of surprises that I was in charge of arranging and it's not my forte. Guys like I'm not this, I'm not that bitch, but that's how much I love him doesn't plan it since August. Even just not telling him is just hard enough, let alone actual arranging and dealing with people and things Part of our weekend. We had a weekend away in London. So we were in the heart of Soho. We stayed in this really cool, sexy rock and roll boutique hotel and right in the heart of Soho and I'm a person who, my body holds a lot of memory. My brain does not hold anything, my brain's like do-do-do-do-do, but my body holds all my memories and so it's not unusual for me to go somewhere and my body sort of just starts throwing up all these memories of a time that I'm like, oh my God, and I start. It's like I'm given an opportunity to process or something.

Speaker 1: 42:36

So, being in the heart of Soho, we're there like Friday to Sunday. The room was so yang energy, it was so sexy. There's so much going on in this bloody room that we're in Energetically, I could feel it. It was like everything was hard and shiny and fast and the energy could just ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And when I got there at first I was like, wow, this is really cool. Right, because there's a part of me that's like that and I don't surround myself with that kind of energy. Um, because I can, it's just too much, right. But I thought, oh cool, we'll do it for a weekend, um. And then we went out on the Friday night went to see Ronnie Chang, which was awesome, big fan, so funny and the comedian, if you don't know who he is. And yeah, then afterwards we were just like rolling through Soho and like I don't roll through Soho, I'm not.

Speaker 1: 43:28

Well, I used to roll through Soho a lot in my 20s, my early 20s particularly, and what I realized when I was there? Because I could feel I was like, oh no, something's roll through Soho. I used to roll through Soho a lot in my 20s, my early 20s particularly, and what I realised when I was there? Because I could feel it. I was like, oh no, something's happening. And what was happening was I was tapping into a version of me that was after uni and before coaching. So it was like this window out in the world, this window out in the world, you know, doing her thing, corporate thing, climbing the ladder, ticking boxes, doing the things, drinking way too much and just really tapping into that person who was just drunk. To be honest with you, most of the time I was numb. That's how I was coping.

Speaker 1: 44:12

This one's about the pain. I was in a lot of pain and I really could feel into it when I was there, cause I was like the other thing that's been happening in my world lately is I've been really realizing that I have like traits of autism as well, as I am masked from my ADHD. I could really feel it this weekend. I could feel it. I was like Whoa, my system can't handle this at all. This is all way too much. And it was making me really feel like, oh my god. I felt so much like sympathy for that younger version of me who literally was so unconscious. I know I was so unconscious. No awakening happened at all. I was just all about this world, the constructed world, and with my Capricorn self right, so I'm going to participate in it. I want to climb up as fast as I can and be at the top of it.

Speaker 1: 45:12

But being there now with me with like so much armor over the years, layers and layers of armor and protection, kind of coming off that I that I obviously required to live that life I felt really sad. I just felt like this poor bitch man, like she, is onslaughted every single day by, you know, this energy. It was too fucking much by Sunday when it was time to go home. We had a great time, but I was so ready like we didn't have a lot of sleep on saturday night and I was just like about seven o'clock in the morning I was like I really need to get out of here, I really need to get home, I can't take it anymore. I needed to retreat back into like my cocoon, and so why I'm saying this is because I'm not her anymore. Like there's so many versions of me that have gone since then and she's still in me, like it's not that she's completely gone.

Speaker 1: 46:17

I see it almost as if these versions of ourselves take a step back and some step forward, and I think that's natural.

Speaker 1: 46:24

I think, like different aspects of us are meant to sort of step forward and back at different times as appropriate to a situation, the same as like emotions as well. I think that's what's supposed to happen. That's why I like wholeness and also maybe having the capacity to um, to do that, I suppose, to beat the agility right, the capacity and the agility to be able to respond appropriately and appropriately I mean like, based on, like our emotions and our biology and our values and the things that matter to us right, and my god, it's like we have to fight for that. We, we do fuck it. We have to fight for that in the world that we're living in, because it's not how it's set up, like it's not set up for us to do this, so that's just a whole nother level of capacity that's required and all of that takes so much time, energy, effort, attention, choices to to build. I could feel it like I'm I'm me now and I can feel her. I don't know 2000 and yeah, it's like sort of September, the 11th days and after.

Speaker 2: 47:50

I feel like what you're speaking to is like what it is what is required to return to wholeness, turn to wholeness like the you know I think about. Okay, you're talking about being in that like carrot chasing constructed world and you know you're getting tick, tick, tick all the accolades, the money. You know you've talked about that in the past like your early career, being hungry for success, and then, ultimately, what you're saying is like I was in so much fucking pain. Right, that pain doesn't disappear, if anything. The more we kick the can down the road avoiding the pain, the bigger it gets and the louder the louder we'll try to get woken up from the slumber we're in, which is avoiding the pain. I don't really think we can ever truly outrun it like it will manifest in different ways. That's my personal belief.

Speaker 2: 48:49

What you're saying now is like, okay, you've dedicated your life to transformation, you've processed and healed a lot and it's an ongoing journey, and then, when you return somewhere into an environment that's mega stimulating, you're able to see, okay, well, I'm, I'm, I'm in a much, I'm in a place where I mean, obviously I know you, so I know you intimately about how you feel and navigate the world.

Speaker 2: 49:15

You're walking around, sensitive and acknowledging all of your faculties and sensitivities and who you are and what it requires you to be okay and functioning, and you're like well, this is way too much like I. I I respect and protect my wholeness and so I now can feel like what is too much versus. I think what becomes really overwhelming is I don't think we're that literate on what our true capacity is and what our true sensitivities are when we're living in that constructed world that's like ultimately gonna cause so much pain, right? I think part of the first step often you know, when we think about like those people that come to work with us, they've never done any transformational work before or never worked with a therapist or a coach or done any kind of inquiry and they kind of knew part of the first step is recognizing that the template that's been offered is, is was never never about you it was never about you, and and no wonder you feel like a square peg in a round hole.

Speaker 2: 50:39

Like it's, it's never gonna. But that's the first delusion to wake up to.

Speaker 1: 50:45

Yeah, yeah, and I think, like the pain piece. Again, we live in a culture look at how we are with pain we're very much about painkillers and shit like that, as opposed to. I wonder what's causing this pain and how can we address this? The root cause, you know, and I think like life is pain, and when I say that I don't mean like all of life is pain. All the time I'm saying, I suppose I'm saying pain is a part of life and it's like pick your pain right. There's a pain of living out of alignment with your truth and then there's a pain of, you know, moving back into alignment with your truth. So pick your pain and take your time. Yeah, because you said something earlier and I thought about your process and wanting to be somewhere and all that kind of stuff and I just I really honestly, fundamentally believe that, like life is trying to help us be whole.

Speaker 1: 51:59

I feel like all roads are leading back to wholeness, so I see it as being part of like a current. So it's always moving. I'm not moving it. It doesn't require me to move it, it requires me to I don't know go with it. I suppose not against it. I can go against it if I want right, but the current is going in one direction, the real current, not the sort of socially constructed current. So things do happen without we're not controlling everything, like there is movement, and that's the one I have to constantly come back to, right. But I think if we don't feel like that and if we, I think that a lot of people, the way they behave, it feels to me like a lot of people don't think there is any form of current. I think it's like they feel like there's nothing until they create some kind of movement, and so the fear is that nothing is happening because and I think for me that's like trust again, it's like the self-trust there's a trust in something bigger than yourself life, divine, intelligence, god, whatever you call that thing. I don't need and it hasn't okay At this point, with the amount, the intensity of transformation that I've been, that I've gone through and seen nothing ain't happening before it's time, nothing ain't fucking happening before it's time. And this good, because there's some parts of me, now that I'm coming.

Speaker 1: 53:47

I've also had quite a gnarly year in terms of development stuff and a lot of my stuff has felt, has been physically quite painful as well, and I also know that I wouldn't have been able to do this work five years ago. So, as much as I might want it all out, get it all out now. I want it out. I want to be free of this shit. I didn't actually have the capacity to and I only know that now because, also, these things it's really weird.

Speaker 1: 54:20

I was writing this in my journal. It's like the weirdest compliment that life will give you sometimes is you've created enough safety. Congratulations. Your body now knows what this level of safety feels like. Here you go. Here's some unprocessed trauma for you to deal with.

Speaker 1: 54:37

You know, it's kind of how it works, and so it's a compliment on one level of like oh's real, what's now, what's going on now and what's when something is processing from the past. For me it comes down to like a belief in a higher power. I didn't even I raised was raised religious. I didn't feel like god or nothing when I was growing up. I didn't feel that anything until my mid-twenties for a different kind of awakening and I love that feeling. I love that feeling of something having my back and supporting me and we co-creating this life together.

Speaker 1: 55:32

Sometimes I don't feel it at all, and when I don't feel it at all. That's when I know that I'm processing something from the past, because that's how I felt. Now I realize, when I know that I'm processing something from the past, because that's how I felt now I realized when I was young, because hence why I felt need to control everything. You know, I was just trying to keep myself safe because I didn't feel safe and I didn't feel protected. So I had to really develop an intense version of that internally for myself. So and I think some of the physical pain this year has been because of the tension of that like um, releasing and stuff like that. So, yeah, figure that out for yourself so that you can recognize when you're like, oh, hold on, this isn't about now, because sometimes I'd be like, oh my god, I feel really anxious, really angry, I don't know why. And it's like it's not because of something that happened yesterday, like that's literally not how life works. Again, that's another false narrative of like there's a conscious reason and it's always related to what's going on. Now it's like no, it's not.

Speaker 1: 56:38

There's a shit ton of emotions, babes, that we've all buried because we had to. No one was there to help us process them, support them. Our needs weren't met in various ways, shape or form. No shade on nobody. Everyone was doing their best, of course, but you know what meantime? We had needs and they weren't met, and our nervous system needed them to be met, and so, in our childish wisdom, subconsciously, we've hacked our way through right, and when that gets too tight, that's like life saying you don't need this anymore, babes, you don't need this bit anymore, this little chunk here we don't need. So let's process.

Speaker 2: 57:25

I'm so grateful to be able to sit here and listen to you, because this is actually really helping me make sense of something, so, thank you. Yeah, what you're saying is reson, is resonating deep, and I agree, what is having me see that's actually really helpful in light of how I felt over the last few weeks is I think that and just bear in mind I'm like saying this out loud for the first time I think that for me yeah, I can really feel the emotion here. I think for me, france, my move to France and the dream was a desire for independence, and I think that came from a very insecure and turbulent time when I was young and I remember making a commitment to myself. It's like one day I'm going to get free and get away and I'm going to build a life for myself, and I had a big fantasy of what that would look like. And I had a big fantasy of what that would look like.

Speaker 2: 58:41

And so when I came into power and means like I'd never had before, I took an almighty leap and I think, for me, a lot of what I was experiencing in France and Paris and building my life there was this real independence for the first time, away from my family system and certain support structures and and I, I just went for it and it was actually really really hard and I was in a lot of pain a lot of the time and I think I would have probably called it you know just the work I was doing or the transformation, but I think a lot of it was just actually feeling separate and quite alone and struggling, and, and so you, I've been back now for about six months and the beginning was quite easy, soft landing, and in recent weeks it started to just get very real, like I'm now starting to feel, like I feel safe enough to process the pain of it and like what that experience was like.

Speaker 2: 59:59

And you know, I'm not saying my experience in Paris was negative at at all. I think it was very important for me to go and experience it. But the loss feels tied to this dream or this fantasy that I'm not even sure is real, because now I'm back and I'm with my family and I'm back in this sort of like environment that I come from, I'm realizing how dependent I feel, I want to be and need to be in order to live the life I want to live, and it's having me let go of someone. I thought that I was yeah, and I'm not finding that very easy. Yeah, it's not easy.

Speaker 1: 1:00:39

That's why, yeah, it's not easy. Yeah, it's not easy. That's why, yeah it's not easy. It's painful, but it's the right type of pain yeah, yeah, for sure and you'll see yeah it bring.

Speaker 2: 1:00:54

It has brought up these feelings of being a failure, which is interesting. Earlier we were talking about, you know, losers and winners and feeling like a loser. And you know, last week, when I was inside of this sort of gnarly internal process, my mind was really active and it was just like beating myself with some stick, like, oh, I can't believe you just fucking let. You just gave it up. You failed, you know, look where you are now up. You failed, you know. Look where you are now compared to where you were.

Speaker 2: 1:01:24

You know, this is kind of measuring stick that feels not part of my inherent value system. It feels like the one given to me, but the inner, the critical, inner narrative was so mean and it hasn't been that mean in a really really long time and I couldn't really shake it off and so I was observing it like this is really interesting. I feel like I've been hijacked by this narrative. That I can see is not true, but there's a, there's a shadow inside that really believes this and it's somewhat unconscious and probably directing some of my life choices, you know, because I can't. I'm seeing it and I'm like, oh, this is gross, this feels horrible. I don't want to love this part. This is gross, oh failure. Well, I'm not failing, you know, but it's like actually there's a part inside that thinks I'm a big fucking loser, a huge failure, fucked everything up. What if I stay here forever, stuck worth nothing?

Speaker 1: 1:02:25

I had to like, get it all out, babes yeah, yeah, I think there's something in what you're saying. For me, the big message I hear when you speak in that is turn towards it. Even when you said I can't love this part it's like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, girl, slow down no one took, no one said anything about loving it. Because this is the other part. Right, when people have been doing development work for ages.

Speaker 1: 1:02:52

First rule of development work for me don't be a wanker. Just don't be a wanker. Do you know what I mean? Don't use your development to be a wanker to yourself or others. So we can be right wankers to ourselves. When we do that, oh, we should love. We've. We've got our own narratives in this world as well, right, oh, we should be loving everything. Fuck off, like. For me again, that's natural. That's gonna fucking happen, like all roads are leading this. I'm gonna go on this journey. I'm not afraid to not love something, but right now it's like just turn and fucking face it. That's all right. Let's see where this takes us. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2: 1:03:32

mate, your use of the word wanker was just so perfect. At times I was like, oh, our american friends are gonna be like what's a wanker?

Speaker 1: 1:03:42

Well, I found that Americans love that word. I know I think it's hilarious for some reason.

Speaker 2: 1:03:48

Say it again, say it again. It's so well-timed. My American friends are like go on, just call him a cunt. Go on, just say it, just do it again Because it just casually comes out. But anyway, that was impeccable use of the word wanker. If it's true, that's going on the grid there's so much wanky shit.

Speaker 1: 1:04:10

Yeah, yeah for sure. Don't be a wanker. Do not use your development to be a wanker to yourself or to others. This world does it not need any more wankers yeah, so forget this noble bullshit. I don't think you need to chase it. You know, when I say forget it, I don't really mean like forget it, forget it, but I just think you don't need to chase it down. I think this might be a sort of version of applying hustle culture to development work as well. You know what I?

Speaker 2: 1:04:49

mean, um, but it's so funny, isn't it? Because it reminds me of like. I feel like we could do a skit. I could, like do a skit of like. You know, just the average person's like. You know, you, look at my life. You'd be like, all right, this poor bitch has been through the fucking ringer this year. This is, this has happened and this has happened, and this has happened. And she's like it's November. She's like scratching her head, like why do I feel like shit, you know. And then she's like going through the development toolbox, like the wanker box, and it's like pulling out every fucking tool in the box to try and oh, um from wank it all up yeah, to try, to try, to try and, you know, do whatever, and there's definitely an archetype isn't there that I'm gonna call this archetype the noble wanker.

Speaker 1: 1:05:32

Yeah, yeah, it's good. It's good, the noble wanker.

Speaker 2: 1:05:35

Don't be the noble wanker yeah, but it's like there are even even myself, sometimes, you know and I say even because I would say that I'm not um unseasoned when it comes to being with loss and grief and change and transformation and and we make things really complex and they're not, you know, sometimes it is about like sitting in the dark and waiting for it to pass, and not wanting it to pass sooner than it's ready to, and being there for a while, I'd say indulge.

Speaker 1: 1:06:18

My thing is and this works for me again, what we want to do is we want to find our own ways that work for us. But, like, I like indulging in things and to really revel in an experience, I like that. That is for things that I like. But even when it comes to things like going through grief processes, it's like even asking, like, how can I indulge in this a little bit? And that just takes me a little bit away from the fight. And if I'm fighting and I'm resisting because obviously that's going to happen too there are times where it's like something just gets activated in my body.

Speaker 1: 1:07:00

All this disassociation gets like kicks in and I'm like, whoa, okay, and I can't actually do anything about that. I have to wait for it to pass. It takes me a minute to realize what's going on. Normally it's because I'm trying to do things and nothing is fucking working. And then I'm like, oh, this isn't one of those things and nothing is fucking working. And then I'm like, oh, this isn't one of those things, something's trying to play out.

Speaker 1: 1:07:24

But one thing I will say is, every single time I go through extreme, intense, dark periods, it's always followed by something pretty spectacular. It really is, and it's that's what I've seen to be true like there's a clearing, there's a contracting, and then there's an expanding, and there's a contracting again and there's an expansion, and that's life. That's actually life. So what we need to do is we need to build our capacity to be able to cope with that, so we can get the fuck out of the way and let what wants to emerge and unfold that is ours because not everything is ours to unfold and emerge, and I actually think it also allows you. When you do it properly, you then become much more respectful of other people's emergent processes too yeah, amen to that.

Speaker 2: 1:08:25

Yeah, I think our kind of low tolerance to be with it in ourselves, yeah, uh, you know means that it's easier then to judge somebody else that's going through you know a period perhaps they're less available, they're grieving, they're going through something, they're, you know, slower to respond than usual, they're, you know, not able to function in the way they were before.

Speaker 2: 1:08:51

It's like just having some grace, for you know what we're all going through and what we might not even know someone else is going through. Like giving people the the gift of grace or just not making everything about you.

Speaker 1: 1:09:11

Do you know what I mean? Because it's just like, well, not everything is about me at the end of the day, and because we can't know everything about what's going on with me. I don't really actually want to spend so much time thinking about other people. If I'm honest with you, I really don't not in that way. Oh, maybe this, maybe that I just really. I I've never, I haven't really experienced at any time in my life where that has been useful for me and I really haven't.

Speaker 1: 1:09:42

What it tends to do is play into my pattern of rescuing and saving thinking. I have to solve everyone's problem being over responsible. I just want to do me, babes. I just want to do me because you know what it's almost like you're over there up in someone else's business and nobody's driving your car, like there's no driver there. So I'm just going to drive my car because that's my responsibility. Yeah, I want to drive my life because otherwise because I see this a lot in my world, because of the whole weird rescuing, saving, codependent shit that we have going on in my family, like many families, everyone it's almost like this image of everyone trying to drive everyone else's car and not driving their own car.

Speaker 1: 1:10:29

So actually, and then and then you become a problem for someone else because someone else needs to drive your car. Do you understand? It's all just this messy, dysfunctional and let's, let's name it for what it is, right. All of this stuff, whether it's within a family, within society, it's all kind of the same society. It's just like a macro version of you know, your family exists within society.

Speaker 1: 1:10:52

Fundamentally, I really believe everyone is just doing their best. They really are right. It's easier to see in a dysfunctional family than it is to see in a dysfunctional society. For me anyway, and it's that this is dysfunctional, this has been led in a dysfunctional way for whatever reason, and everyone in it is just players doing their best to cope with the dysfunction and they've all got different coping styles. And when I say that, I don't say that with any like listen, I'm still be telling people about themselves. I'll still be holding my boundaries, I still. But I'm not saying this in a way of like everyone's doing their best, I'm not doing it.

Speaker 1: 1:11:36

Not being a noble wanker? Yeah, I need, I need the death of the noble wanker. I really do. I need people their feet on the fucking ground, facing life and interacting with it. Now more okay, um, grappling and rumbling with it, because it's fucking gritty out here and grimy as well as beautiful and joyful all of it and, um, I don't remember what I was saying death of the noble wanker yeah, before that I've really now, because this, this term, has just given birth on this podcast.

Speaker 1: 1:12:15

I'm now in a. This really gets fire going in me, but anyway yeah, it's not.

Speaker 2: 1:12:19

I'm actually not going to name the episode death of a noble wanker, but spotify probably was.

Speaker 1: 1:12:25

I definitely think there's oh yeah, yeah I suppose if you want anyone, sadly yeah yeah, but um, I think there's an episode about the noble wanker coming up. Okay for shizzle, but there was something. There was a reason that I brought the noble wanker into it.

Speaker 2: 1:12:44

Uh, we're talking about grit facing life yes um, we were talking about. I was hearing, like you know, stay in your motherfucking hula hoop and get out of other people's and dysfunction exists everywhere and that, yeah, that's it.

Speaker 1: 1:13:01

They're all players. That's what I was trying to say.

Speaker 1: 1:13:03

We're all playing we're all just doing our best, trying to figure out our way of navigating these dysfunctional, you know um systems, like in my family that's been through me, being the control, controlling um golden child of the narcissist. There's many aspects to that role, but those would be my roles. My sister's is different, my mum's is different. I could and I have. Let's not pretend I haven't felt personally offended by the roles other people are playing within this toxic, dysfunctional system, but actually it's not really their fault in that way. They do hold some responsibility in choices, of course, but it's not really.

Speaker 1: 1:13:52

There's something about. It's not like we're on a level playing, blank slate playing field, choosing out of our sheer sovereignty how we're going to maneuver right. It's like no, there's been this threat or whatever that's constantly present for generations, or do you know what I mean in the formative years, and so everyone's just kind of like, okay, so how am I going to deal with this then? And I think that same thing in society. I think it's just like tons of dysfunction, and the dysfunction literally comes from systems that are not based on us. And then we're told to figure out a way to live in like this Maybe that makes sense, and then obviously there's going to be tons of knock-on consequences because of that and noise and stress and shit, and so there is something about that for me, like holding that lens of everyone's just actually trying to fucking find their way in this toxic dysfunction.

Speaker 1: 1:15:01

But where the cycle gets broken for me is when somebody recognizes that that's what's going on and says I want to do something different. And I believe that's us. That's people that are drawn to us and our work, people that listen to this podcast. There's no way you're listening to this podcast if you're not into this. This must sound like a load of fucking shit, you know, I mean, if you're not into this. And so that's who we're speaking to, that's who we're always speaking to, and I just want to name that because I think there's just so much invisible stuff that we don't consider is going on but is fucking always going on and affecting us deeply.

Speaker 2: 1:15:46

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:15:50

You're doing your best, peoples, you really are doing your best, and change is happening, and step by step by step by step by step, but over time you'll see cycle breaking is it's real, real, real, real work.

Speaker 2: 1:16:06

My friends, it's big, big, especially if you're maybe the first one doing it and your family big stuff, as you can tell, this is. This is such a large part of what me and lola talk about every day, like we're just constantly acknowledging and naming some of this stuff and it's really supportive to us, like I think we're we're very fortunate.

Speaker 1: 1:16:33

I really do believe that in terms of because I speak to a lot of people all the time that are like, obviously they're having this conversation with me and I'm sure you have the same. They're like, oh, it's so good, it's so good to speak to someone about this. Like you can't really normally speak to people about this, can you? I hear that a lot and it makes me just and I think, well, actually, yeah, I, I can and I do. Right again, I've created that world for myself. So there's a lot of support in my world and a lot of people who understand, but I appreciate that's not really the world generally.

Speaker 1: 1:17:05

And so support's important and I know that there's something and we will get to it. There's a role that we play in terms of supporting you on this journey, and you'll. You'll hear about it when we're, when we, when we can be bothered to do anything about it. No, when we're in a process, we walk our talk. We ain't rushing anyone for anyone, anything what we ain't rushing anything for anyone. We don't just talk about it, we're about it, you know we thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:17:45

Uh, yeah, just so grateful for the people that listen to us. So if you listen to us, let us know. Love to hear from you. Love to hear from you. I know that it's pretty much exactly a year ago this week. I, I think, that we launched. We've been recording for like five or six months before we launched, but this is like the time that the podcast was actually birthed into the world. So we've been broadcasting for about a year and I think this is our 14th or 13th episode, which is cool amazing, it's really cool and uh, yeah, lovely to be back in the the recording suite.

Speaker 2: 1:18:30

Yeah, with my girl still here.

Speaker 1: 1:18:32

I just want to make a note that the reason we're actually still here doing this is because we're doing it on our terms. If we had and we have had our moments, don't get me wrong, but if we were like we record every week or every other week, like it's just not us, we can't sustain that. But we can sustain this. It feels extremely sustainable, right, and it might you know, who knows, it might change in the future. We don't know, we'll see. It might not, though, as well, but yeah, I just wanted there's something about that, like to be able to do this over a period of time and keep coming back to. It is actually a massive deal for me, and so there's something can has to be on our terms, babes that's right yeah, so thanks for listening peoples and, uh, we'll see you soon yeah, we love you my friends.